Beris is so annoying, she keeps spamming pins back to back and it traps me even though it says I have the resistance buff. You literally can't do anything but struggle if you keep getting bad rolls and have to burn a bunch of energy potions until you get lucky. Beating her isn't difficult if you're on par with levels, but the fight takes forever if you get caught in a loop like this.
Tried taking advantage of her weakness to bondage play *hint hint*? Wiki states she has a -25% status resistance against restraints. Granted, at some point she becomes unbeatable, but that's simply because of how the Labyrinth works (hellhounds becoming stronger every time the player wins, or escapes from a fight), but I can usually fend her off 3 - 4 times and I didn't get too crazy with level farming.
holy shit this game is amazing 10/10 would recommended, I especially loved Gren. I've dumped 5 hours into this game and I have not regretted it for one second.
Glitch report I've defeated the second hellhound in the labyrinth (the blue one), arrived on the 3rd floor, got defeated and now the game won't let me go back to it. I've tried defeating each Hound again, but no luck, I'm literally stuck, please help-
EDIT : Nevermind, the issue was adressed in a patch note and I was playing on the A version. Makes much more sense. That's why you should read everything, children.
To all having problem with beating any hellhound floor. Just re-spec into escape/willpower build, choose escape related trinkets and save after each encounter/key found. When hellhound catches you, Just run away. If IT fails, restart save and try again. You can save inside labirynth, so there is no problem at all. Run-collect keys-win-profit. No need to battle any of them. After you brute force your way out of labirynth, you can away go again and fight them to your hand-consent.
cheers and good luck. (Lamia is an impostor, ain't no way she's hellhound. Same Mother and father my ass)
PS:
Third floor is hardest, since you need to backtrack to find Keys that were shifted.
Last floor is easy, Just run in a circle and collect every key from tiny corners. There gona be a lot of battles, but again- Save game and run away every time.
IT was only text before. But now there are added scenes to some moster, mostly main charracters. You gona find more down the path, some hidden, some not
I can only play v23.6a and not the other updates without having to restart from the beginning.
Whenever I try to load a save from v23.6a, an error screen appears.
Could you tell me how to load saves from my old versions?
My main character is level 65 and I've unlocked basically all the content v23.6a has to offer and I don't want to lose all that and have to replay all the stuff I've already played through.
If you want to brutforce it try to spec into full escape build with willpower, and Just Save before each encounter and run away From Lamia...yyy..i mean from hellhound. Just go in the circle collect keys and leave. I had enaught lvl to Just run every single time from her. If you fail to run away Just reset Save and try again
how do i beat the blue side will-power temple? I am stuck on the levers thing I tried every combination i got over 100k eros killing the monster girls there over and over and I start to use only 2 abilities and win against some of the girls.
If I remember correctly, you only need to pull one, or two of the levers and then leave the room, in order to pass the trial. Using all three of them will lock you in a loss scene with a Trainee.
Collect keys as usual and the floor will soon turn dark, once this happens the layout will change a bit and other keys will spawn, so, don't forget to check path already trodden (user "bob" stated there are ten keys to collect in total).
Ushris… Aside from what I think is a "one time thing" with the Holy Headpat skill, there's no real way to beat her, try to fend her off while depleting her energy and she'll escape from battle on her own.
Has anyone figured out how to have sex with Ushris? I mean without magic/seduction. I've tried everything I think such as magic binding, pin, charming, hoping she runs out of energy and the sleep debuff but nothing really seems to work. She runs away immediately when she runs out of energy and when she falls asleep she wakes up instantly, charming also doesn't seem to really do anything.
The only method I've found that really works to beat her is to use magic and seduction which kind of sucks since I'm a power build lol. So anyone figure out how to stop her from teleporting?
I was under the impression that she couldn't be beaten the usual way, since she tends to escape from battle on her own. Well, it would make sense to beat her with magic.
Another user, "TheDisturbedDragon", stated:
I've seen her get over 10k, lvl 500+, and still won. Of course, I am lvl 539... Basically, once she's past lvl 150 or so, fighting her is virtually impossible. She has an absurd dodge chance, so just run away.
That's kind of scary, Venefica seems more manageable.
I've seen her get over 10k, lvl 500+, and still won. Of course, I am lvl 539... Basically, once she's past lvl 150 or so, fighting her is virtually impossible. She has an absurd dodge chance, so just run away.
I need help with the third floor. I tried twice now, second time with a screenshot of the map where I mark all the keys when I get them. After I get all the keys, I still can't open the door. It just devolves into going everywhere on the map, and fighting Beris and Ushris five dozen times, which is a real pain. Anyone know what's up?
On the release version which added Labyrinth (v24) there was a bug that had the game not state when the player collected all the keys need to open the door.
Going through most of this game the past 3 weeks I can say that it's a good game and has it moments of great writing(Kotone's questline being amazing)
However, one thing sours the experience entirely for me. The complete lack of Venefica's romance despite the constant progression towards it.
Especially with how many sweet moments she has with you(even if some are paid for) it seemed a given that she would drop her cold attitude towards you and eventually be as loving as she is with the honeymoon chocolate scene. Venefica's interactions and the questline(+ the unbeatable wild spar scene) all hint that she's romantically interested in you and not just as a masochistic pet.
I hope so. The quest itself feels half complete, and other than a shitty discount and options to spar with the strongest character in the game for Umbral runes, it feels pointless to do as it has no effect on her character towards you.
AFAIK, Venifica is very much an ice queen type character. She's not looking for a partner, but neither is she looking for just a pet. I assume Thresh will revisit the content later, but for the moment she's aloof and will remain that way.
Rather pointless to have an ice queen waifu type that dosen't melt. Especially with the various lovey dovey moments she enjoys.
Nothing states she's not looking for a partner or that she isn't open to one. And you still appear before her and early on her diary states she really likes you. (+ all the flustered moments and the entire wild lose scene where she's literally claiming you) Not to mention the love bar she meant to give to someone special and she lets you have it.
There's also the dream sequence. Her diary and customer book wanting you as a pet. And extra(yet also seemingly unfinished) dialogue when you wear a collar near her.
Overall, her current content equals in length to Kotone's. Except Kotone actually progresses beyond her initial sadistic attitude(Same with the Manticore that actively denies wanting a relationship but that gets solved nicely) (Also, if you spar with Venefica when she holds back. She has a debuff called "Venefica's love")
Patch data is comprised solely of the stuff required to update an already-existing version of the game on your device (in other words, it's for those that don't want to download the whole thing again).
I have a small problem I can’t install the game after the last update v24.d I am on Android 10 with 1GB of free space I need help please this is a great game and I love it
Oh nevermind if you have this problem and nothing you try works you just have to delete all of the data and files around the game then turn of you phone for 5 mins at least and then turn it on wait for a few mins and then go download the file and install it if this doesn’t work then I feel sorry for you and hope that it’ll work out somehow for ya
Also I would love to become a patreon subscriber I’m just waiting for a new goal to get put up. I know you are busy but I like having something to look forward to.
I actually like the labyrinth there are some bugs but that’s to be expected and can be easily fixed. I don’t mind how long it took because I understand people have lives. I can’t wait for the capital to come out, looking forward to more Sofia and Stella content. Take your time with it I don’t mind one bit I’d rather get a lot of amazing content then barely any because it was rushed.
A year for three characters and art drawn by other people. Crappy UI and fog of war in the new labyrinth. What the fuck happened here? We get 3 chapters of Crimson Keep in the same time and Intro is the only one doing art there. If I was a patron I think I'd be even more upset.
This isn't Thresh's job. This is a side project/hobby. Consider all the shit that's happened during 2020-2022. Some people were hit a lot harder than others.
Venefica's Questline still breaks in 24.b when reloading my previous save (even though it's in the town square). Upon defeating Venefica it doesn't show the end dialog and the game thinks that you're in the guild and providing 2 options to talk to either Elena or Elly. Haven't tried it out with starting another playthrough yet though.
yeah the dungeon 3 map got locked after i lost and at first i thought i just had to redo the first and 2nd but even when i did it didnt.
the map thing isnt the worst, its none too different than other online games ive played though it still does run too slow so i cant just spam a straight line when it occurs, cause if i do the thing counts trying to move but failing as moving so the girls just catch up to me when i do it.
also the game generally runs slow, it may just be on my end but it wouldnt surpise me if it was just the result of the game being a very complicated visual novel.
also will it ever be possible to roll back in this game? i have a very bad habit of quickly reading and or skimming through text, and then going back to read it, and not having that option when not in battle is very annoying
theres a "history" option, which is basically a text log. Just go with your mouse to the top of your screen and a bar with multiple options including history should pop up. (you can also make the bar appear by pressing the ^ arrow button if you use a keyboard).
Well sadly I can’t do the third level for the labyrinth because the second one with Berris got locked as permanently unbeaten even after I beated it like 3 times I hope that this bug will get fixed soon but anyway the map system and such in labyrinth is amazing if I exclude that bug
UGH on the labyrinth in getting past level 3, half wonderful if one of the traps spins me around a little, and it being a little buggy. Barring that, I love the new content overall. Each of the hellhounds is a hoot, Beris was especially funny when she saw me at the labyrinth and was sputtering from remembering our "fun encounter" and Ceris is wondering what's up. Think my favorite of the hellhound sisters is the third one, she's very composed and friendly but has a naughty side (along with the whole pet thing). Also love the new encounter at working at the bar, the kunoichi encounter is funny and it's funny seeing her wanting to get dominated as thoroughly as her sensei.
Also KNEW my eternal rival would show up with her delusions of grandeur by saying the hellhounds are her subordinates and all of them going "what the heck just happened here?" When asked if I know this red slime, saying "She's my eternal rival" was super funny! If I could just get past level 3 of the labyrinth,.half thinking of just giving up and letting the 3rd hellhound (I can't remember her name ATM) have her way with me... except that Jora is still my favorite waifu! Think Jora would mind sharing?
Question: How do I unlock holy skills? My guess would be to donate a certain amount of money to the church but I don't want to just throw my money out the window for no reason. Can someone enlighten me?
From my knowledge there is only 2 holy skills and their name is holy headpat and demon layer which you can get by interacting with lilian go to the wiki for more info on how to get them
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Beris is so annoying, she keeps spamming pins back to back and it traps me even though it says I have the resistance buff. You literally can't do anything but struggle if you keep getting bad rolls and have to burn a bunch of energy potions until you get lucky. Beating her isn't difficult if you're on par with levels, but the fight takes forever if you get caught in a loop like this.
Tried taking advantage of her weakness to bondage play *hint hint*? Wiki states she has a -25% status resistance against restraints.
Granted, at some point she becomes unbeatable, but that's simply because of how the Labyrinth works (hellhounds becoming stronger every time the player wins, or escapes from a fight), but I can usually fend her off 3 - 4 times and I didn't get too crazy with level farming.
Can't say if that's true. Got catched 3 Times by her in both labyrinths and escaped every time. Not my preference so i did not bother her after :D
Anyone know how to buy skills and items on android
press and hold the item/skill
Clicking on stuff gets much easier if you use a stylus if your phone has one
holy shit this game is amazing 10/10 would recommended, I especially loved Gren. I've dumped 5 hours into this game and I have not regretted it for one second.
i dont know if its my phone that is the problem but the game keeps crashing on mobile.
It's probably your phone I'm playing on android and it's not crashing on my phone
Glitch report
I've defeated the second hellhound in the labyrinth (the blue one), arrived on the 3rd floor, got defeated and now the game won't let me go back to it.
I've tried defeating each Hound again, but no luck, I'm literally stuck, please help-
EDIT : Nevermind, the issue was adressed in a patch note and I was playing on the A version. Makes much more sense. That's why you should read everything, children.
lvl 4 maze is too hard help :(
Either over level or just keep running away.
Making a map also helps since her floor doesn't change.
Quick question is there any "belly inlfation/cum flation" or even some breast expansion in it shouldbe great at some point hehe let me know please
Nope. Vili has a bit of breast inflation thing but that's more her being a shapeshifting imp than any body modification stuff.
To all having problem with beating any hellhound floor. Just re-spec into escape/willpower build, choose escape related trinkets and save after each encounter/key found. When hellhound catches you, Just run away. If IT fails, restart save and try again. You can save inside labirynth, so there is no problem at all. Run-collect keys-win-profit. No need to battle any of them. After you brute force your way out of labirynth, you can away go again and fight them to your hand-consent.
cheers and good luck. (Lamia is an impostor, ain't no way she's hellhound. Same Mother and father my ass)
PS:
Third floor is hardest, since you need to backtrack to find Keys that were shifted.
Last floor is easy, Just run in a circle and collect every key from tiny corners. There gona be a lot of battles, but again- Save game and run away every time.
why is there like only one sex scene with the blue slime in this game?
or is it a bug bc if u have sex with other enemys in combat u only get a text?
IT was only text before. But now there are added scenes to some moster, mostly main charracters. You gona find more down the path, some hidden, some not
I can only play v23.6a and not the other updates without having to restart from the beginning.
Whenever I try to load a save from v23.6a, an error screen appears.
Could you tell me how to load saves from my old versions?
My main character is level 65 and I've unlocked basically all the content v23.6a has to offer and I don't want to lose all that and have to replay all the stuff I've already played through.
If it helps, I can tell you why I have an outdated version of the game.
I downloaded the game at v23.6a and played through all of it in a few days.
And a new update drops, I try to download it, and it works just fine but, when I try to load a save, an error screen appears.
I left a comment asking for help, but no one replied and I forgot about the game.
Remembered about this game, and checked up on this page.
The new update drops, I download it in the hopes the error is fixed.
It isn't and still can't load my saves, here leaving another comment for some help.
Did you remember to save in town?
Frick so that's the problem?
Do all my saves need to be in town?
When moving+updating saves between different versions of the game? Yes, saves need to be in town.
EDIT:
Also, once you successfully move the save to an updated version, go to Preferences/Options and pick Update Save.
Omg, it worked! Thanks so much!
I can't wait for the next update the game is so good really nice game 100/10
how do i beat the last monster girl that guard in the labyrinth i am stuck
If you want to brutforce it try to spec into full escape build with willpower, and Just Save before each encounter and run away From Lamia...yyy..i mean from hellhound. Just go in the circle collect keys and leave. I had enaught lvl to Just run every single time from her. If you fail to run away Just reset Save and try again
After that you can come back any time and have fun batteling her to your hand content
ok thank you and i hope your advise work ^^
If u want to actually fight her i suggest using seduction abilities, some other things will just backfire
how do i beat the blue side will-power temple? I am stuck on the levers thing I tried every combination i got over 100k eros killing the monster girls there over and over and I start to use only 2 abilities and win against some of the girls.
If I remember correctly, you only need to pull one, or two of the levers and then leave the room, in order to pass the trial. Using all three of them will lock you in a loss scene with a Trainee.
It not a combination, you only need to choose the correct one.
Does anyone know how to beat the labyrinth? I've only been able to beat the 1st and 2nd levels. In the third level I have no idea how to beat Ushris
Edit: I also don't know how to escape veneficia's cell
Collect keys as usual and the floor will soon turn dark, once this happens the layout will change a bit and other keys will spawn, so, don't forget to check path already trodden (user "bob" stated there are ten keys to collect in total).
Ushris… Aside from what I think is a "one time thing" with the Holy Headpat skill, there's no real way to beat her, try to fend her off while depleting her energy and she'll escape from battle on her own.
Thanks for the advice!
Read your edit about Venefica's cell. You should manage to escape during a three-days shift by agreeing to be her familiar.
How do I become ger familiar?
Edit: I'm already her familiar but all I can do in the cell is masturbate
That seems weird, maybe you also need to have her milking perk (not entirely sure about this, sorry)?
With Allure build, beating Ushris with only Enamor is more than possible, but it's really draining on energy
Has anyone figured out how to have sex with Ushris? I mean without magic/seduction. I've tried everything I think such as magic binding, pin, charming, hoping she runs out of energy and the sleep debuff but nothing really seems to work. She runs away immediately when she runs out of energy and when she falls asleep she wakes up instantly, charming also doesn't seem to really do anything.
The only method I've found that really works to beat her is to use magic and seduction which kind of sucks since I'm a power build lol. So anyone figure out how to stop her from teleporting?
edit: Tried electrify(stun magic) effect immune :(
Use Magic and Seduction.
I was under the impression that she couldn't be beaten the usual way, since she tends to escape from battle on her own. Well, it would make sense to beat her with magic.
Another user, "TheDisturbedDragon", stated:
I've seen her get over 10k, lvl 500+, and still won. Of course, I am lvl 539... Basically, once she's past lvl 150 or so, fighting her is virtually impossible. She has an absurd dodge chance, so just run away.
That's kind of scary, Venefica seems more manageable.
how do I defeat the mattress girl?
You can't fight Bed-chan
But if you mean Anecilla then just try your best
How old is the player character?
Is it limited to generic teenage hero or could you be in your 20s-30s?
Game is kind of vague about it, the intro suggests that he's young. Onto other things, he's a blank slate, do whatever works for you.
The term young is indeed very vague. Especially in regards to century old individuals.
I was just curious whether age was set or blank.
The player character is you get Immersive.
Some minor details of the character's background are set. I was just curious if age was aswell.
So is bring Ceris to 5000 arousal supposed to be a thing that can happen?
I've seen her get over 10k, lvl 500+, and still won. Of course, I am lvl 539... Basically, once she's past lvl 150 or so, fighting her is virtually impossible. She has an absurd dodge chance, so just run away.
I need help with the third floor. I tried twice now, second time with a screenshot of the map where I mark all the keys when I get them. After I get all the keys, I still can't open the door. It just devolves into going everywhere on the map, and fighting Beris and Ushris five dozen times, which is a real pain. Anyone know what's up?
On the release version which added Labyrinth (v24) there was a bug that had the game not state when the player collected all the keys need to open the door.
Theres 10 keys you need to get
there's one where you started iirc, spawns when it goes dark
Will try that, thanks :)
im Burning. *o*
idk why but most of the time when i beat the second labyrinth it sends me back to the second one instead of letting me back to the 3rd
If you still have problem, you probably aren't on the most recent updated version of the game, hence you not being able to shortcut to 3rd floor
Going through most of this game the past 3 weeks I can say that it's a good game and has it moments of great writing(Kotone's questline being amazing)
However, one thing sours the experience entirely for me.
The complete lack of Venefica's romance despite the constant progression towards it.
Especially with how many sweet moments she has with you(even if some are paid for) it seemed a given that she would drop her cold attitude towards you and eventually be as loving as she is with the honeymoon chocolate scene.
Venefica's interactions and the questline(+ the unbeatable wild spar scene) all hint that she's romantically interested in you and not just as a masochistic pet.
I figured this was because this game is still updating
I hope so. The quest itself feels half complete, and other than a shitty discount and options to spar with the strongest character in the game for Umbral runes, it feels pointless to do as it has no effect on her character towards you.
AFAIK, Venifica is very much an ice queen type character. She's not looking for a partner, but neither is she looking for just a pet. I assume Thresh will revisit the content later, but for the moment she's aloof and will remain that way.
Rather pointless to have an ice queen waifu type that dosen't melt. Especially with the various lovey dovey moments she enjoys.
Nothing states she's not looking for a partner or that she isn't open to one. And you still appear before her and early on her diary states she really likes you.
(+ all the flustered moments and the entire wild lose scene where she's literally claiming you)
Not to mention the love bar she meant to give to someone special and she lets you have it.
There's also the dream sequence. Her diary and customer book wanting you as a pet. And extra(yet also seemingly unfinished) dialogue when you wear a collar near her.
Overall, her current content equals in length to Kotone's. Except Kotone actually progresses beyond her initial sadistic attitude(Same with the Manticore that actively denies wanting a relationship but that gets solved nicely)
(Also, if you spar with Venefica when she holds back. She has a debuff called "Venefica's love")
Do anyone know how to touch label because she Dodge if u use physical contact move
i think you can only use magic and seduction on her
IIRC after a certain point she is able to dodge magic. Seduction seems like the way to go.
what's the different between patch data and complete zip
Patch data is comprised solely of the stuff required to update an already-existing version of the game on your device (in other words, it's for those that don't want to download the whole thing again).
Complete, on the other hand, is the whole thing.
I have a small problem I can’t install the game after the last update v24.d I am on Android 10 with 1GB of free space I need help please this is a great game and I love it
And if there is no way to repair it for now is it possible to download older version of the game
Oh nevermind if you have this problem and nothing you try works you just have to delete all of the data and files around the game then turn of you phone for 5 mins at least and then turn it on wait for a few mins and then go download the file and install it if this doesn’t work then I feel sorry for you and hope that it’ll work out somehow for ya
How do I update the data from .23 to 24?
download the lastest version but don’t delete the older version then just load the latest version and load a save that’s in the town square.
make sure to download it in its own file and not overwrite your other version
Also I would love to become a patreon subscriber I’m just waiting for a new goal to get put up. I know you are busy but I like having something to look forward to.
I actually like the labyrinth there are some bugs but that’s to be expected and can be easily fixed. I don’t mind how long it took because I understand people have lives. I can’t wait for the capital to come out, looking forward to more Sofia and Stella content. Take your time with it I don’t mind one bit I’d rather get a lot of amazing content then barely any because it was rushed.
What else did i Miss?
Kotone is making me redo everything but...
I have redone everything, only thing she says now is to beat Both Bosses on "Hard" im going crazy trying to figure this out!
Yes i have done Both Hard and fought them Both TWICE! What do i do?
Visit her again? Did you get the True Sigil of Power? You may have to leave to town and return.
Game's kinda broken in some areas (like the trials) if you use a save from v23.9
Did you update the save? I used a save from v23.9 on v24 and was able to go through the trials again.
A year for three characters and art drawn by other people.
Crappy UI and fog of war in the new labyrinth.
What the fuck happened here? We get 3 chapters of Crimson Keep in the same time and Intro is the only one doing art there. If I was a patron I think I'd be even more upset.
LOL
I can't even get the labyrinth to come up without endless garbage programming text showing up in the text box.
I managed to get to the third floor before updating to 24.B and it's been broke ever since.
It’s actually only been 9 months since we got new content I’m just glad they are still working on it.
This isn't Thresh's job. This is a side project/hobby. Consider all the shit that's happened during 2020-2022. Some people were hit a lot harder than others.
Venefica's Questline still breaks in 24.b when reloading my previous save (even though it's in the town square). Upon defeating Venefica it doesn't show the end dialog and the game thinks that you're in the guild and providing 2 options to talk to either Elena or Elly. Haven't tried it out with starting another playthrough yet though.
can somebody help me with the Console the wiki isn't much help
yeah the dungeon 3 map got locked after i lost and at first i thought i just had to redo the first and 2nd but even when i did it didnt.
the map thing isnt the worst, its none too different than other online games ive played though it still does run too slow so i cant just spam a straight line when it occurs, cause if i do the thing counts trying to move but failing as moving so the girls just catch up to me when i do it.
also the game generally runs slow, it may just be on my end but it wouldnt surpise me if it was just the result of the game being a very complicated visual novel.
also will it ever be possible to roll back in this game? i have a very bad habit of quickly reading and or skimming through text, and then going back to read it, and not having that option when not in battle is very annoying
theres a "history" option, which is basically a text log. Just go with your mouse to the top of your screen and a bar with multiple options including history should pop up. (you can also make the bar appear by pressing the ^ arrow button if you use a keyboard).
Well sadly I can’t do the third level for the labyrinth because the second one with Berris got locked as permanently unbeaten even after I beated it like 3 times I hope that this bug will get fixed soon but anyway the map system and such in labyrinth is amazing if I exclude that bug
UGH on the labyrinth in getting past level 3, half wonderful if one of the traps spins me around a little, and it being a little buggy. Barring that, I love the new content overall. Each of the hellhounds is a hoot, Beris was especially funny when she saw me at the labyrinth and was sputtering from remembering our "fun encounter" and Ceris is wondering what's up. Think my favorite of the hellhound sisters is the third one, she's very composed and friendly but has a naughty side (along with the whole pet thing). Also love the new encounter at working at the bar, the kunoichi encounter is funny and it's funny seeing her wanting to get dominated as thoroughly as her sensei.
Also KNEW my eternal rival would show up with her delusions of grandeur by saying the hellhounds are her subordinates and all of them going "what the heck just happened here?" When asked if I know this red slime, saying "She's my eternal rival" was super funny! If I could just get past level 3 of the labyrinth,.half thinking of just giving up and letting the 3rd hellhound (I can't remember her name ATM) have her way with me... except that Jora is still my favorite waifu! Think Jora would mind sharing?
a year for three characters and art drawn by other people?
Art takes a long time to make. Good art takes longer. The new art is really good art. I know someone who takes months per drawing.
Question: How do I unlock holy skills? My guess would be to donate a certain amount of money to the church but I don't want to just throw my money out the window for no reason. Can someone enlighten me?
From my knowledge there is only 2 holy skills and their name is holy headpat and demon layer which you can get by interacting with lilian go to the wiki for more info on how to get them